On Playfulness in Adulthood
If you’ve ever wanted to be a fly on the wall during a candid, insightful, and refreshingly lighthearted conversation between two friends — you’re in the right place. Therapists Dani and Jesse explore life’s big questions (and some lighthearted ones too) with a blend of humor and sincerity. In a world that often feels heavy, playfulness isn’t just a distraction — it’s a meaningful way to cope, connect, and build resilience. Through personal stories, thoughtful reflections, and plenty of laughs, this episode of Out Of Session with Kindman & Co. podcast invites you to feel seen, understood, and maybe even inspired. Settle in, read on, and let Dani and Jesse keep you company — you’ll laugh, reflect, and discover the power of connection through play.
Out of Session Podcast: Episode 13 On Playfulness in Adulthood
Dani (00:14):
I'm Dani.
Jesse (00:15):
And I'm Jesse.
Dani (00:15):
And you're listening to Out of Session with Kindman & Co.
Jesse (00:19):
A Feelings Forward podcast where we leave our therapist selves at the door and have messy real conversations about being human. We're deconstructing the narrative of an expert through uplifting lived experience and inviting free flowing learning with community. We invite the imperfect, unfiltered, and rawness of humanity.
Dani (00:39):
Alright.
Jesse (00:40):
You want to kick it off? Shall I?
Dani (00:45):
In the name of play, should we rock-paper-scissors for who is going to start us off?
Jesse (00:51):
Best of one? Best of three?
Dani (00:52):
Best of one. I'm pretty bad though.
Jesse (00:54):
Rock, paper, scissors, shoot?
Dani (00:55):
Yes.
Jesse (00:56):
Alright.
Dani (00:56):
Okay. Ready?
Dani & Jesse (00:57):
Rock, paper, scissors, shoot! Oh. Rock, paper, scissors, shoot! Oh shit. Rock, paper, scissors, shoot! Nooo (laughter).
Dani (01:06):
Ready? Okay.
Jesse (01:07):
Last time.
Dani (01:08):
Okay.
Dani & Jesse (01:09):
Rock paper, scissors, shoot.
Dani (01:11):
Yes! Oh, wait, so now I have to start off.
Jesse (01:13):
You kick us off.
Dani (01:14):
Alright, Jesse. Well, we've been talking about play. And this sort of came up as I've been talking to people lately, sort of referencing the, what is it called, "Healthy Mind Platter" by Dan Siegel, who basically outlines, these are different elements of self-care you can incorporate into your life. And one of them is play. And I feel like for myself, and just in talking with other people, I've noticed that adults just don't play as often as kids do, or as often as I would hope kids do. So I'm just going to start it off with what do you think play is?
Jesse (01:59):
Well, I like the statement you made that as adults, we don't play as often as kids do. And I feel like that's resonating, or one of the big things that's resonating with me. Yeah, why is it, you posed the question the other day, why is it so hard to play as an adult. And thinking back to a time, or even, you look at kids, they do it with such ease. It comes so naturally...
Dani (02:21):
True.
Jesse (02:22):
It's so ingrained in us and then we forget. It becomes hard.
Dani (02:26):
Totally. And I think I grew up in one of those households where my parents were like, "go play outside. Go." If we were doing anything remotely relaxing, watching too much TV or, I don't know, something that they deemed useless, they were like, "go outside." Were you raised in a household where play was promoted?
Jesse (02:50):
Yes. And it's interesting you say, if we were seen as doing something useless. It's the same thing as, my mom especially, it was just like, if you're watching TV or playing video games, you're destroying your brain or something like that. It's like, it's "useless." It's not helping you to become a better person or something. It doesn't serve some end. But then if you looked at the ways that we actually played as kids, there wasn't really much use to that on the surface. There wasn't some end in sight. We weren't aiming to accomplish something specific. And that was part of what made it fun was that we would go outside and have an idea, like okay, let's play where I'm the one who's running a skate shop and you're, I don't know...
Dani (03:39):
(Laughter)
Jesse (03:39):
That was something we did. We got skateboards and we set up a little skate shop and then we put up a sign. "No Elizabeth allowed." That's my sister.
Dani (03:50):
Poor Elizabeth.
Jesse (03:51):
But I guess, I don't know, even as I say that, I said we did it without some end goal in sight. That was when we were a bit older. There kind of is an end goal there actually.
Dani (04:02):
What is the end goal? Excluding Elizabeth?
Dani & Jesse (04:03):
(Laughter)
Jesse (04:06):
Perhaps. I think it's like, we learn from a pretty young age, I don't know, setting up a shop. We're trying to sell the skateboard. The way that play mirrors culture and that kind of interaction of culture and play.
Dani (04:25):
I've never understood, I mean, I do get it in the way that you're describing it, but mirroring adulting. But I never really did understand why kids were so intrigued to play with cash registers? The kids' cash registers and the money. I just didn't want to do that. That was like, if somebody gifted that to me, I'd be like, "oh, thank you," and be like, "Um, put that in the back of the closet." Of all the things that I could imitate, cash register was not it. Skate shop sounds much more fun.
Jesse (04:57):
It was. And it wasn't, now that I'm thinking about it more, it wasn't even about the business aspect so much. We just wanted to put our skateboards up against the wall and put a little table and pretend like we were doing something official. But it was more the fun of it.
Dani (05:11):
It sounds really cute. And ultimately... you're sort of bringing up the piece of "purposelessness of play," like, why do it? And I don't think anybody asks why when they are playing. Kids, if you're like, oh, let's play pretend, or let's build this skate shop, I don't remember being like, "but why, Jesse?"
Jesse (05:33):
(Laughter)
Dani (05:35):
There is no purpose behind it, not a spoken one at least.
Jesse (05:40):
Yeah. Yeah. It's like if there is a purpose or if there was a purpose, it was just to have fun. Or I mean, even then it's like, we weren't thinking, "let's play so we can have fun." We just play. But then you look at... you were talking about the Dan Siegel... I remember at my last job working with kids, we had a little poster in the bathroom that said, "10 Ways that Play Promotes Kids' Brain Health," or something like that.
Dani (06:05):
That's a good way to make kids not want to play.
Jesse (06:07):
Yeah, I know (Laughter). And it's like, when we look at it as adults, we're breaking it down for its value, its use value, and trying to justify it, of like, why is it important for our kids to play? When as a child, I don't know. Sure. It's true. You're using your imagination. That's helping your brain to develop in certain ways. You're learning social emotional skills. That's helping you to develop in very important ways. But we're not thinking about that as we're doing it. And I think that's a big part of what makes play, "play," and maybe why it's so hard to play as adults is because we get so used to having to justify our time.
Dani (06:52):
Totally, totally. I love the purposelessness of play and I think that's hard to replicate as an adult. I love to create things. I have a bunch of crafty hobbies and it's funny, my wife will sort of be like, oh, you should sell that. And it's like, I don't want to sell that. Right. But also, I'm always making something for a reason. I'm making a beanie because I don't know, it's winter time. There's a purpose. But there was this sort of phase I was in maybe a few years ago, I think it might've been during the pandemic, where I purposely made ugly key chains.
Jesse (07:34):
Do you have examples? I'm kind of curious.
Dani (07:38):
I don't have any with me, but I remember I had a bunch of beads, just collecting them through projects that I've done throughout the years. And, I love a bead shop, and I'll sort of just buy things because I like it. And I'll get one of this bead, and, for example, I have one that's a yellow carnelian pig, and it's like, why would I ever use that? I don't know. But I thought it was cute and I really liked it, so I got it for, it's always like 50 cents and I can sort of justify it in my mind like, "oh, well, I need this yellow pig. I'll use it for something." But I ended up making these ugly key chains and the only rule that I had for myself was I'm not going to judge any of it.
Jesse (08:23):
That's a good rule.
Dani (08:25):
And they were sick! They were super colorful. I used the beads that I had been putting aside waiting for the right project, and I was just throwing stuff together. And I ended up giving them to my friends sort of saying, "here's an ugly key chain. I love you. You don't have to do anything with it." But it was so heartwarming. I gave it to one of my friends and she still has it on her keys.
(08:54)
And I thought it was so cute. I was like, oh, I was just giving this to you so that I didn't necessarily keep it, and I don't know, to put this out into the world somehow, but she really liked it. And that was so touching that she could something that I made that was sort of useless just for decoration and it was just me having fun.
Jesse (09:14):
And I mean... how connecting that is? I don't know if I'm picking up on the right thing, but... it feels like that was meaningful to you.
Dani (09:25):
It was because I think, I actually don't know. I don't know why. Do you know why? Are you picking up on something? (Laughter)
Jesse (09:32):
Well, I think of different... maybe similar experiences of just doing something that is authentic and real, and maybe doesn't have some purpose... I don't know. I think of the types of purpose that we're conditioned to believe is valuable, and then we come to believe that that's how we should be. I should be good at X, Y, or Z, because that's my profession, my trade, what's going to make me money, what's going to bring me success or help me build my network. But then there's so many ways that we derive satisfaction in doing something that doesn't have a productive value, but that feels more real or just feels more like an expression of me.
Dani (10:18):
Totally. I mean, I've felt sort of like your realness... I guess I'm going to out you on this hobby that you have,
Dani & Jesse (10:27):
(Laughter)
Jesse (10:27):
Uh oh. (Laughter)
Dani (10:27):
But the...
Jesse (10:31):
Being human, right?
Dani (10:33):
Being human, being messy...
Jesse (10:34):
Take the therapist hat off.
Dani (10:36):
(Laughter) But you'll share with me these beats that you create. It seems like just for fun. We'll be talking about music and you'll say like, "oh, this reminds me of a beat I made." And it seems sort of like you just did it to do it. I don't know that it has purpose, but it does seem like it's a real something coming out of you. And I love listening to them. I'm like, oh yeah, that's sick.
Jesse (11:00):
I... thank you, Dani. I thought you were about to out me on something else. I thought--
Dani & Jesse (11:03):
(Laughter)
Jesse (11:06):
For those who... none of you know, because I don't share this with a lot of people. I am a nerd.
Dani & Jesse (11:12):
(Laughter)
Jesse (11:12):
I thought you were about to start talking about my fantasy maps that I create.
Dani (11:15):
Well, I love those things too. Okay?
Jesse (11:19):
So, now everyone knows. I outed myself, but a proud nerd. But the beats. Yeah, you're right. Yeah. I feel like there have been times or instances where I've made music because there is a clear purpose. If I'm collaborating with someone or I'm trying to create a project. Or I think of earlier when I started making beats, I had this idea of, well, what if I do make it? What if I get really good and then I can
Dani (11:47):
"Monetize."
Jesse (11:47):
Make it in music, monetize. Yeah. I don't really have that relationship with music anymore. Because of that, it feels a lot easier to just do it without some clear end goal. And a lot of actually making these beats that I show you is just me kind of messing around with samples. And a lot of them are goofy. A lot of them are funky. But that is just kind of an expression of me.
Dani (12:16):
But it comes through. I don't necessarily hear the goofiness or funkiness of it maybe. I don't know. I just don't. But it feels like you're showing me this real piece of you that... it has no words and is just something that you created. And I really like that.
Jesse (12:36):
You don't think it's goofy or funky?
Dani (12:39):
I haven't... maybe funky in like the, "Ooh, that's a funky beat. Yeah."
Jesse (12:43):
I have a beat on my sampler app called, "Ooh, that funky." There's a sample.
Dani (12:47):
(Laughter) So that one would be. It would be funky.
Jesse (12:50):
It's got a nice drum break, got a guy going, "Ooh, that funky."
Dani & Jesse (12:52):
(Laughter)
Dani (12:54):
Did you do the vocals for that?
Jesse (12:56):
I did not. That was a poor imitation.
Dani (12:58):
(Laughter)
Jesse (12:58):
But yeah, I appreciate that. I see it as... I don't see goofy or funky as a bad thing. It's because when I'm making beats like that without, "I'm making a beat for someone or I have some end goal," it feels easier to do it in a way that's playful.
Dani (13:17):
Yes.
Jesse (13:17):
And...
Dani (13:17):
Purposeless!
Jesse (13:18):
Yes! Yeah. It's like I don't necessarily need this to turn into anything. It can turn into whatever it turns into. And then I'm also just kind recognizing that that's not always easy to enter into a creative process with that state of mind. Especially when, some people, definitely not me, but when you're very self-critical.
Dani (13:39):
Oh, that's not you. No.
Dani & Jesse (13:40):
(Laughter)
Jesse (13:42):
It's, yeah, thinking that that's one of those ways that our playfulness can... it becomes more difficult for that to be expressed.
Dani (13:54):
It's so interesting...
Jesse (13:54):
To think how that grows when we grow, or as we age.
Dani (13:58):
And there's something... I can almost, I mean, again, as not one of those people, obviously, that's self-critical, I don't know what you're talking about... But that voice in my head is so hard to turn off.
Jesse (14:11):
Mhm.
Dani (14:11):
But for some reason if I'm engaging in some crafty thing, I can set that intention and turn it off in my brain. And if I do feel okay, this critical voice is coming in, I don't want to do the craft anymore. I want to put it away. I don't want my negative self-talk to influence this thing, so I'll just step away from it. I feel like the critic in my mind taints things creatively that I'm just like, if that's coming into this space, I don't even, I'll come back to this later, which is probably why I have a lot of unfinished projects.
Jesse (14:51):
Oh, I feel you.
Dani & Jesse (14:52):
(Laughter)
Jesse (14:54):
I feel you. Yeah. I mean, I feel that, and I almost also feel like to be in a state of play, to really be immersed in play or in creating in this kind of spontaneous and free way, it's hard for those to exist at the same time. That self-critical tendency and then to be playing. Maybe certain types of games or different kinds of play, you're being strategic and backstabbing people or I don't know. Then you're being very, you're using those critical thinking skills. But I think of the kind of play that we were talking about at the outset, of the importance of play for us, play that is purposeless, play that isn't about learning something specific. And I guess in a sense it's not really purposeless, it's just that we don't need to talk about what its purpose is.
Dani (15:48):
True.
Jesse (15:48):
It's intuitive. It's self-evident when you're in it.
Dani (15:52):
Completely, completely. And I think when I am sort of, I don't know, exploring, how do I play? I don't know, I forgot what I was going to say there.
Jesse (16:08):
Can I ask you a question?
Dani (16:09):
Mhm.
Jesse (16:09):
How did you play?
Dani (16:11):
How did I play?
Jesse (16:12):
As a kid?
Dani (16:13):
Oh man. Well, there was a lot of outside stuff. I feel like I always had a pocket knife and I was cutting pieces of plants off... (Laughter) I don't know.
Jesse (16:26):
That's pretty cool.
Dani (16:26):
Creating potions or something?
Jesse (16:27):
Oh, yeah, yeah.
Dani (16:29):
I did have a pocket knife at a pretty young age. I think mostly because I liked fishing and outdoors. I don't know that I should have had one, but...
Jesse (16:36):
How old are we talking? Four or five years old?
Dani (16:38):
Five.
Jesse (16:39):
Oh, damn. Alright.
Dani & Jesse (16:39):
(Laughter)
Dani (16:42):
Yes. For my fifth birthday, I remember my dad gave me this multi-blade pocket knife. I still have it, and it's a really lovely sort of gift that I cherish, but sometimes I look at it and I'm like, this thing for a 5-year-old?
Dani & Jesse (16:55):
He really trusted you.
Dani (16:56):
It's a lot of trust. I know. Yeah, that was a lot of trust, but I feel like I was like, I don't know, sort of making potions. I loved making little adobe bricks, I don't know, to build things out of mud. I remember having my favorite "play outside jeans" have holes in the knees. That must've meant that I was sort on the ground a lot, but I don't really remember. Do you remember how you played as a kid outside of maybe younger than the skate shop?
Jesse (17:30):
Yeah, I think a lot of playing outside, a lot of imaginative play where I remember, I think the most distinctive memories I have of playing as a kid are with friends where we would be crafting these worlds and stories, we would be pretending to be something or someone, and just exercising that imaginative capacity, or maybe even fantasy escapism. Who knows? I wasn't probably thinking of it that way as a kid, but (Laughter)
Dani (18:04):
Well, you think of it that way now. And you call it nerdy.
Jesse (18:07):
Yeah. Or I think even as a kid, when kids can use imaginative play as a way of coping or making sense of their world when it doesn't make sense, when you have instability in your world or you're experiencing relational trauma, imaginative, make-believe play, it can be a means of making sense of that or coping with it. I feel like that's a big part of how I played. And then as I grew older, I found other more effective ways of escaping and coping and numbing, and play ceased to be play. Or I don't know, it took on a much different shape and quality.
Dani (18:50):
Totally, escaping, but not having that same sort of energy in it that was fun?
Jesse (18:57):
Yeah. It turned into "work hard, play hard." And by "play hard," you know what I mean. (Laughter)
Dani (19:02):
I do. I do. I'm sort of thinking about my grandma. So going back to how did I play as a kid? I don't really remember. I know I was outside a lot. Roller skates, I don't know, hockey sticks, things like that. I loved to play soccer. But what I remember the most was having my grandma and my parents sort of teach my sister and I skills. So at a young age we were learning to cook or learning to crochet or my grandma would just give us sort of a jar of buttons and be like, sew something. And I don't know, it was like a crafty play. But I think that was rooted in sort of escapism that, this is sort of me assuming, but I imagine my grandma needing and her family needing. So my grandma sort of had this motto or has this motto that, "you always need a project."
(20:02)
And she learned that from her mom. You always need a project. You're quilting, you're sewing something, you have a knitting project. I don't know, fixing something. And I think that that's how my family coped. It looks like fun on the outside and it looks like play maybe for adults to be crocheting and creating. But I think really it was them coping and it was this, it was sort of this, I don't know, secret coping like, "I'm going to let the world think that I'm actually creating something, but the reality is that I'm sort of disconnecting from a harsh world."
Jesse (20:46):
And God forbid they find out that I'm actually just trying to play and release some tension.
Dani (20:51):
(Laughter) I hope my grandma played.
Jesse (20:53):
Yeah, I hear what you're saying though. I see that a lot in, I'm going to call out my old man, I see that a lot in my dad. I just remember from a young age, him having to keep busy. And I think that's a very common thing for people, maybe even across cultures, but just in a society where productivity is so highly valued, that becomes a way of channeling that kind of restless energy. And maybe that's one of those things where, when we started talking about this question of what makes it hard to play, that might be one of those things is this kind of sense of guilt that I know I feel if I am spending too much time doing something that feels unproductive and I don't like that, I feel that guilt, but that is something that I know I'll feel.
Dani (21:46):
Totally. Of course. I mean, I think that's the way that this world is set up, that it has to be productive. The least productive thing that I think I do just for fun, whenever I feel like it, my wife and I like to have dance party nights.
Jesse (22:08):
Love it.
Dani (22:09):
Where we'll just be like, should we have a dance party today? It's just a random day. We somehow don't have anything on the calendar, and we just put on good music. We'll make, it's essentially we're making a party for ourselves. We just have great appetizers, charcuterie board, I don't know, maybe we order food, and then we get glow sticks, just put 'em around the house. This is a disco night.
Jesse (22:37):
You make it a whole ordeal. I love it.
Dani (22:39):
Yeah. And it's the most... I love it because it's random, it's spontaneous, it's fun. We kind of create this mood in the house and all we're trying to do is play and we'll just play different genres of music and dance and that's it.
Jesse (22:58):
Yeah. And I feel like that's so needed in our lives, where we often feel this kind of burden of stress and trying to keep burnout at bay, to have play like that. But then I'm even noticing in my own mind, we're talking about, it's just impromptu, spontaneous. We're not going into it with a purpose. And then I noticed the part of my mind that's like, "well, if you have a dance party, that's a wonderful way of relieving stress,"
Dani (23:28):
(Laughter) True.
Jesse (23:29):
And it's like, trying to find a justification. I notice how that comes up so quickly that makes it hard to really allow ourselves to do what you're talking about and just really let loose and be free in the moment... at risk of sounding like a hippie, but I kind of am.
Dani (23:47):
(Laughter) Being free in the moment. Totally. And there's been moments where we're like, should we be doing this? Should we be cleaning instead? Should we be doing something else? And it was like, no, let's just have a dance party. Who cares? Whatever. It does sort of remind me, earlier you asked me this question of, I think you said something about privilege and play. Do you remember the question?
Jesse (24:11):
Is it a privilege to play?
Dani (24:12):
Is it a privilege to play? I definitely think you need some financial privilege to have more diversity in play. And I am thinking of it as, I don't know. Like I mentioned, we'll buy glow sticks. We will get stuff to make a certain meal, maybe we'll order food in. We are sort of paying for this apartment where we have the space...
Jesse (24:42):
Yep.
Dani (24:43):
To even create a mood.
Jesse (24:44):
Yep.
Dani (24:47):
All of that requires money.
Jesse (24:49):
For sure. And even if you're playing in very economical ways, I think the other ways that privilege shows up... being able to work approximately a 40-hour week, which is still a hell of a lot of a time to be putting into work. But folks who are working 60, 70 plus hour weeks, being exhausted, still struggling to make ends meet, and how do you find the time or energy to play in that?
Dani (25:27):
I don't know.
Jesse (25:28):
That's the part of me that thinks of how there's that kind of idea that, just the mentality of, I don't know, there's a difference between hustle culture, where I think of people who are just trying to get ahead and win the game. Then I think of people who actually have to fucking hustle...
Dani (25:47):
Yes.
Jesse (25:49):
And can't really... it's harder to make the time for that kind of play or that kind of levity.
Dani (25:58):
Sure. I mean, one sounds like more of a choice than the other.
Jesse (26:01):
Yeah.
Dani (26:03):
And for folks that don't have a choice, yeah, I imagine that they would love to play, but time to play is just so limited. Because I think there's plenty of ways to play with nothing. You and I could create a game right now. I mean, we just played rock, paper, scissors to figure out...
Jesse (26:21):
Totally.
Dani (26:23):
Sort of how to start this.
Jesse (26:25):
Yeah. There's a part of me, maybe this is the hippie part of me that wants to say, "play is a state of mind." And I think there's probably some truth in that you could even approach your work as a form of play. Granted, that's probably a lot easier depending on what type of work we're talking about.
Dani (26:43):
Sure.
Jesse (26:44):
Some types of work I'd imagine is damn near impossible to feel like play. But I think there's this other part of me that's really kind of sitting with this idea of play as such a vital thing for us that so many of us feel deprived of. And not just socioeconomically of having limited time to play, but I think of also how easy is it to step into that frame of mind? When being a person of color or being queer or being trans in our world as it currently is, thinking of the dimensions of privilege, power, how easy is it to actually feel playful at different moments? And we were talking before doing this, neither of us was feeling particularly playful.
Dani (27:34):
No.
Jesse (27:34):
That's just the truth. I appreciate that we've been kind of playful with it in some ways, the rock, paper, scissors, and jokes. But I think, yeah, that's something I'm curious, what do you think about that? The power/privilege and the ability to step into that frame of mind when shit feels so scary, heavy, et cetera?
Dani (28:02):
I mean, it is interesting because I'm sort of thinking of this moment with you where the hope is that this podcast reaches people. The hope is that we're sort of...
Jesse (28:13):
Hi.
Dani (28:14):
(Laughter) Hello. Whoever's out there. The hope is that we're sort of putting out conversation that is meaningful and I don't know, spreading thoughts and feelings and words about things to other people like...
Jesse (28:29):
Yeah.
Dani (28:29):
Sure, the hope is that there is a purpose to this. But as you and I were talking, I was just in the moment with you and we're just sort of going back and forth. I'm staying curious about your life experience. I'm not really overthinking. It was a good time. I felt like it was a version of play. And then when you brought in the piece of like, oh, I escaped to the world that we lived in. I'm like in between, my brain is between these headphones. my only job right now is to have a conversation with you. And that felt really playful. And then when you sort of pose that last question, I'm like, oh, right. The world, it felt like the world is sort of creeping back into this world...
Jesse (29:12):
Oh fuck, I'm sorry.
Dani (29:13):
And into this room.
Dani & Jesse (29:14):
(Laughter)
Dani (29:16):
But it is true. I have not felt playful lately. The world is sad. It is quite literally raining outside. It feels like a representation of, I don't know, how gloomy things have been and dark. And it doesn't seem... I'm not in a hopeful place. I'm not feeling like, oh, things will get better. Not that I have to be, but I have not felt in the mood to play,
Jesse (29:39):
Fuck. I feel that. I'm feeling it right now just hearing you talk about that. Gut punch, why you got to do that, Dani?
Dani (29:47):
I know. I'm feeling tearful.
Jesse (29:50):
That's real though. I mean, the way you're describing this experience of just shooting the shit, no purpose. I mean, we went into this saying, we're going to talk about play, but even then, folks, we had an outline, we did some research...
Dani (30:03):
(Laughter)
Jesse (30:03):
And then when we sat here today, we were like, screw it. Let's just freestyle. We have some ideas. Let's just go into it and see where it takes us. And a lot of the time, it's felt playful. It's felt like a little break from all of the shitstorm around us. And I'm sorry for bringing it back up. (Laughter)
Dani (30:25):
No, I mean, I'm more thinking I appreciated the escape with you.
Jesse (30:30):
Yeah.
Dani (30:31):
That was fun. And the reality is our world is really shitty right now.
Jesse (30:35):
Yeah, yeah. You got to come back from the escape.
Dani (30:37):
You do have to come back from the escape. And I'm actually really good at escaping. I think sometimes so good, too good. Where I love escaping in movies and fantasy worlds and into my own mind, sometimes in a dissociative way, just disconnecting, where it's... the reconnecting to my body, to my feelings, to my mind, it's hard. It's really hard.
Jesse (31:05):
It is. Yeah. It is hard. And I think, I don't know. There are times where I think, of course it's hard and I think, I don't know, this may sound strange coming from a therapist, actually, it aligns with what you wrote about in a blog not too long ago about intentionally avoiding, which I'd imagine for some people feels counterintuitive or like, (sarcastic voice) "that seems maladaptive."
Dani (31:34):
True. (Laughter)
Jesse (31:34):
Sorry, I'm going to take the therapist hat off. But I think it's so essential to be able to do that, just to get through another day sometimes.
Dani (31:46):
Completely. Ultimately, I think we are all just trying to get through the day or get through a moment. And if you have to dissociate or you have to do something that other people might judge, that's none of their business. Obviously I would prefer for the people I care about and just the people in the world to reach for the coping skill that is going to best support them long-term. But if you have to avoid, who am I to tell you what you should or shouldn't do?
Jesse (32:18):
Totally. Totally. There's no moral high ground with that. Or I don't know. Maybe there's some things I would question how you derive... (Laughter) Anyway, we won't get into all that. But if you're not causing harm, you do you.
Dani (32:32):
Right? That's your autonomy in life. You choose what you feel is best for you or what is best for you in that moment. And I think sometimes we choose the bad thing, whatever that is. Whatever that means.
Jesse (32:45):
Oh yeah.
Dani (32:46):
Yeah.
Jesse (32:47):
Ice cream.
Dani (32:49):
Ice cream? (Laughter)
Jesse (32:49):
Ice cream. Yeah. Actually, that's not my choice. I know people for whom that's their choice. But, what do I choose? I tend to choose savory foods and eating excess savory foods now that I'm sober. I can't use the old go-tos of psychoactive drugs.
Dani (33:06):
Well, you could, but you, you're choosing not to.
Jesse (33:09):
I could, and actually I'm looking at my cup of coffee. I still kind of am choosing some. Anyway...
Dani (33:16):
But the whole judgment, I mean, we'll just put the whole judgment piece. What drugs are more acceptable in society? Going back to the moral high ground, a lot of people are drinking coffee, vaping, whatever, and there's less judgment on certain ways of coping.
Jesse (33:33):
Yeah, yeah.
Dani (33:34):
And more judgment on other ways. Self-harm, right?
Jesse (33:39):
Totally. Yeah. We live in a society.
Dani (33:45):
We do.
Dani & Jesse (33:45):
(Laughter)
Dani (33:45):
We do, we do. And it's out there waiting for us, which I think ultimately I just feel appreciative of the what? 30 ish minutes of being able to escape the world with you. Because I don't know that I've sort of like, if we're going to call this play or a version of play, I don't know that I've played with somebody in a long time that wasn't like one of my really close friends or a family member or my niece. It's fun to play with you.
Jesse (34:21):
Aw, it's fun to play too, Dani. Let's set up another play date.
Dani (34:27):
Alright, we'll do it.
Jesse (34:29):
Actually, I had a spontaneous idea.
Dani (34:31):
Oh, dear.
Jesse (34:31):
A playful idea. You think it's still raining outside?
Dani (34:36):
(Laughter) Definitely.
Jesse (34:37):
I say, after this, when we wrap up our episode, and we'll record our outro later...
Dani (34:42):
Mhm.
Jesse (34:43):
We go just run around in the rain like little kids.
Dani (34:46):
I'm down.
Jesse (34:47):
You down?
Dani (34:47):
I'm down.
Jesse (34:48):
Okay. We'll see how long it lasts, but we'll do it.
Dani (34:50):
Okay, deal.
Jesse (34:51):
Alright. Cool.
Dani (34:52):
Alright.
Jesse (34:52):
You don't believe us folks? Check the social media feeds.
Dani (34:56):
(Laughter)
Jesse (34:56):
Check the gram. There's probably going to be a video there.
Dani (34:58):
Not that we're making purpose out of play, but just as evidence of play.
Jesse (35:01):
I know. Oops, I did it again.
Dani (35:03):
That's alright, Brittany.
Dani & Jesse (35:07):
(Laughter)
Dani (35:07):
Thanks Jesse.
Jesse (35:07):
This has been fun, Dani. Thank you too.
Dani (35:11):
So typically we end by inviting you to connect with a community org or something that we've sort of researched that aligns with the topic. But today we are bringing you to yourselves and asking you to go play, find a friend, find something that brings you joy, and do that.
Jesse (35:34):
Yeah, we were talking in our conversation about just the kind of spontaneity and purposelessness, and we hope that you can do some of that, and use play as an act of reconnecting with yourself, connecting with others, and getting through this shit show that we find ourselves in.
Dani (35:58):
Thanks for listening and catch you next time when we're out of session.
Dani Marrufo is Latinx, lesbian woman who is passionate about supporting Latinx, BIPOC, and LGBTQIA+ folks. She is constantly navigating the intersections of my queer identity & religion/spirituality and very excited about helping poly and queer-identified partners to feel more secure in their relationships, communicate effectively and compassionately, and bridge any relevant cultural differences to have increased curiosity and enjoyment in their partnership.
Jesse Romo, AMFT, is a multi-racial associate marriage and family therapist who aims to break intergenerational cycles of addictions, abuse, and trauma while also revising narratives of distress and well-being. Creating music, taking rides on his motorcycle, and spending time with his partner and their trio of cats (Sakura, Amma-chi, and Simba) is how Jesse likes to connect with life.
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