On Privilege, People of Color, and Taking Up Space
This episode was recorded prior to the series of tragedies that directly impacted AAPI and Black folks in our community. Together we stand with sorrowful hearts and united disappointment from systemic failures that continue to prevent repeated physical and emotional harm. Please visit us at kindman.co on Instagram for a list of resources if you are looking for therapy or ways to participate in community healing.
On our podcast episode in “Out of Session with Kindman & Co.”, Dani, a lesbian Latina woman, and Amanda, a nonbinary Chinese American, chat about having a speaking platform for people of color. They’ll dive into why the two of them launched this podcast, how it feels to establish a platform to speak, to take up space and freely speak about lived experiences given the history of feeling silenced.
*You can listen to the episode on Spotify and Apple Podcasts.
what sparked this feelings-forward, messy podcast?
Dani: Oh man, I was thinking about how the conversation first started between you and I about blogs. I think we started talking about “Oh my gosh, I wish there was another way to get information out that wasn't typing in front of a computer.” For those of you listening, Kindman & Co., on our website, we have a blog, and there's this loose but also firm ask for everybody that works here to write a somewhat frequent blog. I think at this point I worked here for a little over a year. I think I've written maybe two blogs. I know that that's not meeting the ideal amount of blogging, but I just really hated it. Like it sucked. And so I remember you and I bonding over the idea that there could be another way to get out info, and that was just exciting to me.
I think it was cool to write blogs on finding a right fit therapist or seeing what other folks have written, but I'm not passionate about writing things - typing things out. It's not a place where I feel confident or comfortable. You know, I'm a therapist! I thrive in holding space with humans, and a blog to me just doesn't do that in the same way. But I know what it does for other people. Do you remember the beginnings of talking about blogging and wishing there was a different way to talk?
Amanda: Oh yeah. I was thinking when we first started, I do remember that conversation of just really thinking “Wow, every word that I write here on my own is going to be read. And it all has to be of importance.” So I think just having this conversation with you is much more relaxing. So I'm excited to see where it goes. And also for people who prefer a written version, there is a transcript of all of this in our blog form. [You’re reading it now!]
written word vs. speech
Amanda: So, you know, everyone has their wins and losses of “Do they like blogs or not?”
But I wanted to ask specifically: what makes you more inclined to do a podcast and talk versus all the writing? Like, why is it that you love the speech so much, but hate the writing so much?
Dani: The thing that comes to mind when you ask that is thinking of people that have had the right words, you know, and being able to identify with that. I talked to folks that love reading and they just feel that something is just written so eloquently or in a way that just speaks to them. The way that I've felt most drawn in is through conversation.
And my grandma comes to mind, right? Like someone who just knows the right thing to say, and I felt so connected to me. That's a full experience in talking with her where it's like, we're looking eye to eye. She's telling me something. We're connected in conversation. And I just can feel the power in that. I can feel her emotions. I can feel mine. I just don't get that in the same way when I'm reading or writing. So it feels exciting to be able to share this space with you and to be able to think about the other folks that are going to come onto this podcast to speak, like what they might have to say. That feels very exciting to me.
storytelling in families of color and/or immigrants
Dani: Storytelling, it's something that my family really valued in quality time - hearing about somebody's day, hearing about their life experiences. I'm curious how storytelling or non-written language was used in your household.
Amanda: That's a good question. We were talking about this earlier, and I realized a big revelation that I can't write Chinese. So everything that I speak with my parents and the people who raised me has to be not written, has to be through speaking, right? My grandma only speaks Chinese, right? And that means she is only able to write in Chinese. So it is a huge part of how my family is able to connect with one another and learn from one another. So it's a big deal. Like when you're saying, how does it relate - it is a really, really big deal. And that's why I think it's important that I also continue to speak my language -, continue to stay with my roots in that way or else I lose a very valuable part of feeling connected with the people who really were important to me and are family.
Dani: Definitely. And I think just from what you've shared, there's been a mix of folks speaking Mandarin, folks speaking Cantonese. And I'm curious how confident you felt. There was such an emphasis on “This is the way that we communicate. It must be through speaking.” Did you feel confident in speaking Mandarin or Cantonese or English, right? Like growing up, did that feel like something that you could do to communicate?
Amanda: I think back to when I was younger, and the answer right now is no. I don't feel very confident in speaking Mandarin. I barely know enough Cantonese to really be able to converse. But I think when I was younger, that was my first language, right? So having that importance of being able to speak to them has slowly shifted. But I think partly because it has been hard to find a space to speak Mandarin, especially after I moved to college, or moved away from family. I'm only able to speak it very conversationally, right? And if I think about it, I already have a hard time speaking up in spaces where I speak English. So, it is equally as hard if not more to find spaces where I'm speaking in my original first language that I'm not as connected with anymore. I think there's that inner battle of how can I even take up space in English speaking places, in work places that solely speak English?
privilege, intersectionality, & speaking up
Amanda: So I was curious. What about you? Do you relate in finding it difficult to speak up in the spaces that you're in? In the languages that you do speak?
Dani: Yeah, I mean, I hear you talk about language and the way that you've connected with family or have struggled to connect with family because language is so powerful. Because that's like your roots, right? Like where you come from. And I think there's so much value in storytelling, at least in my family, and I hear you saying something similar. But to broaden that in speaking up in general? Using my voice, it's interesting.
Dani: I think it's almost easier to uplift somebody else's, and that in preparing what we were going to discuss today, the thought that kept on coming into my mind was “Damn, the privilege that I have, right?” I felt some shame and guilt coming in for me. Thinking about, “Oh, I have the privilege of time and energy, a supportive work environment to even launch a podcast, right? The ability to create this platform with you. I was taking stock of all the ways that and all the reasons why I should not take up space. And it's funny, right? Like two people of color that are having this podcast episode be about taking space. I was like, “No, no, no, I take it back. I take it back. I don't deserve this.” And so I found myself just invalidating myself and almost feeling like I had to confess, “Oh my gosh, these are all the ways that I have privilege.”
There was a much less focus on my marginalized identities, which I think is different, right? Like, I don't typically silence those pieces of me. It was interesting now that I had this place to talk with you, being Mexican, being a woman, being lesbian, like that all went out the window. I was like, “Oh, none of that matters. Let's just focus on why I should not be here.” I feel like I'm almost second guessing myself and something that I was super excited to do with you and with everyone here at Kindman & Co.
So yeah, I got in my head.I totally got in my head and got in this confused place. Is that just me?
Amanda: Oh my gosh. No, not at all. And I just wanted to say too, I'm just imagining you as a therapist. You would never say the things that you say to yourself right now. Like, “I don't deserve this space” to any of your clients, but it's just interesting how we are kind of putting separate expectations on ourselves. But yes, I definitely resonated.
privilege, intersectionality, & the model minority
Amanda: I’m also somebody who had access to higher education, graduated from a university, does not have a disability, right? I hold a lot of privilege. And even now I'm like, “Dani, why don't you speak more like let's hear your voice in this podcast?” Because when you said, “Damn that privilege,” it really sparked the thought process of intersectionality. Of my identity as an East Asian, Chinese American in this racist, colorist society. Like, I am the model minority. It is a myth, and also there are ways that I have benefits.
Dani: You literally just said, I am the myth. I think you just debunked yourself, like, what you were saying.
Amanda: I didn't realize that, but yes, I mean, don't call me out right now! But, right, you saw the contradictoriness of the things that I said, that the model minority is a myth, right? Asian Americans, especially East Asian Americans or East Asians who have immigrated here, were used as that racial wedge to be the race that was “better,” right?Like making this sort of oppression olympics of who's better? I'll always advocate for my community and against the model minority myth. And also I'm very aware of the ways that I have benefited from this ideology. So for me, it was so much more important and so much more present in how I am speaking with others and how much space I take up. Because I just thought that other voices were more important to uplift. Especially with me as an East Asian, and then we talk about all the privileges that I have had, right? Growing up, being here, being able to do this podcast.
And I have come to kind of grapple with the idea that I'm still allowed to take up space, right? Like, my experiences are different, and I do hold a lot of different identities. Like, I am queer, I am non-binary, I am neurodivergent, right? So having space and actually allowing myself to take up space for different lived experiences that I have has been new, and has been brought to the forefront because of this podcast.
grappling & connecting with our different lived experiences
Dani: Mm-hmm. The words that stick out and are just sticking in my mind right now are different and grappling, right? Like, grappling with the model minority, and both recognizing it as a very real thing, but then also recognizing it as something that's like, “How the hell is this real,” right? Like, just grappling with anything in your identity can be so challenging and offers so much space to invalidate you or internalize what people are telling you. The word grappling is a physical fight, but that's like all you're describing - that it’s just all internal, and something that you have to think through and feel through inside, feelings-wise, right?
The word “different” - you said that a few times. It stuck out to me because I think different doesn't mean better, right? Like, there's no scale, there's no measurement to that. It's just different. You and I are different from each other, you know? I'm thinking, on the last episode with Paul and Kaitlin, we are all different from each other - just like everybody on the Kindman & Co. team, and whomever is listening to this episode, right? But it doesn't mean better, it doesn't mean worse, it just means we're not the same.
I think the hope in this podcast is to reach people who are different. Going back to the importance of storytelling, it's a way to feel connected with each other, and I'm so hopeful that this will lead to more connection. I feel more connected sitting next to you right now, and I think it's really cool to be able to share space with you.
Loneliness to me is one of the shittiest feelings that someone can have and I feel like connection is the opposite for myself, right?So I appreciate feeling connected to you.
Amanda: I like that - that connection is the opposite of loneliness. And yeah, thanks for sharing space with me too and letting me share too. And it's been nice learning more about you.
Thanks for joining us today to talk about race, privilege, and taking up space as people of color. Part two of this conversation will be airing soon to address allyship and what we're doing with our privilege. And before we go back to session, here is a community highlight and a social media account to decolonize your feed:
Ground Game LA is a horizontally managed grassroots, grassroots group building community and a total power in Los Angeles. More BIPOC voices are being heard as they're bringing the movement to the people, door knocking, and uplifting marginalized voices and experiences.
Trans Latina Coalition is an organization serving and uplifting trans gender nonconforming and intersex individuals. They have a wide range of resources and services including advocacy and policy change, leadership development, violence prevention, providing food, clothing, and ESL classes to the community, and much, much more. They've got an amazing website and Instagram, so please go over to them.
They're currently looking to hire a lawyer to help with immigration work and legal services. Please visit here if you're interested or know someone who's interested in helping them out there.
You can also provide donations to them via their social media and website
Dani Marrufo is Latinx, lesbian woman who is passionate about supporting Latinx, BIPOC, and LGBTQIA+ folks. She is constantly navigating the intersections of my queer identity & religion/spirituality and very excited about helping poly and queer-identified partners to feel more secure in their relationships, communicate effectively and compassionately, and bridge any relevant cultural differences to have increased curiosity and enjoyment in their partnership.
Amanda Lam is a queer Asian American, an aspiring therapist, and the Care Coordinator at Kindman & Co. They really enjoy connecting with others and building community. They are especially interested in working with/supporting QTPOC folx. For fun, Amanda loves to explore different coffee shops, dance, and be creative—whether through art, design, or photography.
GET HELP NOW
If you are interested in therapy with Kindman & Co. and would like to learn more about the services we have to help you, follow these quick & easy steps:
Schedule a free 20-minute phone consultation with our Care Coordinator.
Get matched with the therapist who’s right for you.
Start feeling more supported and fulfilled in your life and relationships!
THERAPY SERVICES AT KINDMAN & CO.
We are here for your diverse counseling needs. Our team of therapists provides lgbtqia+ affirmative therapy, couples therapy & premarital counseling, grief & loss counseling, group therapy, and more. We have specialists in trauma, women's issues, depression & anxiety, substance use, mindfulness & embodiment, and support for creatives. For therapists and practice owners, we also provide consultation and supervision services! We look forward to welcoming you for therapy in Highland Park and online.