It's really important to note that as we record this, there is a current reemergence of waves of anti-LGBT+ legislation in the United States, particularly targeted at Trans folks and Trans kids. We condemn these measures and want to offer support to any and all LGBTQIA2S+ folks and their allies. Please visit this link for a fuller statement as well as resources for support and advocacy.

In this month’s episode of “Out of Session with Kindman & Co.”, explore gender and sexuality with Courtney Rago and Steve Wilson - two of our therapists who are queer and also work with many queer clients. Courtney and Steve will dive deeper into the definitions and terminology used by the LGBTQIA2S+ community. They'll also share their own experiences and identity, and discuss how definitions themselves can be frustrating. 

*You can listen to the episode on Spotify and Apple Podcasts.

naming privileges in identity

Steve: So, part of what I think is really important for any sort of discussion when we're talking about identity is to talk about how the people having the discussion are identifying themselves.

And I just want to say that I am fully aware that identity in these questions can also reflect fluidity, so none of this has to be fixed – making space for that.

But here as a person having this discussion, I am a cis, white male – gay male. I identify as queer. To me, queer and gay don't necessarily reflect the same thing. I’m also educated, raised in an upper middle class environment. I am a citizen. I am able bodied. I know that I am a person who carries a whole lot of privilege in this world. And so, I get to talk about this topic and many topics from a position of relative ease, comfort, and safety, which I know is not available to a lot of people.

And I think why it matters to me to have these conversations from my sort of position is not to take up space in the conversation, but to invite other people who are like me to participate in the conversation. That might mean listening in or making space for others to talk. But also, reflecting that if you are in a position of privilege like I am, that we also have a duty to make space and speak out for people who might not feel safe or comfortable to do so. So that we can provide safety in community with people who don't share all of the intersections of identity with us, who may not have as much privilege as we do.

And I probably left out some pieces of my identity, which can come up in additional conversations. So yeah, that's where I'm coming from in this conversation.

Courtney: Thank you for that, Steve. I couldn't agree more. I think it's absolutely integral that we both locate ourselves in the conversation and hold space for the privilege with which we are entering the conversation. 

So I am a white, non-binary, bisexual / queer, non-monosexual, human. I was socialized as a girl. I am able-bodied. I come from a place of significant privilege in terms of higher education and access to academia. I was born and raised in the United States, and in New Jersey. (So, East Coast represent, for sure!) And I am absolutely sorry - I am missing so very many facets of identity. But every time we click record, somehow I forget how to speak, which is probably not great for someone who is currently speaking on a podcast to name, but here we are.

language as a construct in the LGBTQIA+ community

Steve: So this is a big topic and we're in an audio medium, and so it requires a lot of discussion about language. There's a lot of terminology that comes up around talking about gender, sexuality, sexual identity. What do all these things mean? Are we talking about the same thing?

I'm just curious to get your take, Courtney, as somebody who spends a lot of time thinking, researching, and spending spaces in wrestling with these ideas. Let's just start with gender, and I'm curious for your thoughts on some of that.

Courtney: I think it's funny. I’m noticing that I'm nodding at you and making faces at you as you name, “It's an audio format.” I was like, “Oh yeah, it is.” And so I think that that's in some ways freeing and in some ways limiting because language is a limited construct.  And the language surrounding LGBTQIA + identities continues to shift and grow as society gains acceptance for broader, more fluid identities. And folks have more space to self-identify and build language in ways that feel safe. And also, then some of the terms that I'll throw out because I spend so much time in queer research and queer spaces with like my cishet humans who don't spend a lot of time in this space, they're like, “Wait, what did you just say to me? What does that word mean?” And so I think just to start, there is no right or wrong way to use language to describe yourself.

I think inherently we need to get on the same page about what language we're using and also own that the language we're using is limited. And, we want to make this podcast as accessible as possible to folks who are inside of queer communities and outside of queer communities. And, give us space to explore language. 

And also, hold that identity is not stagnant. Identity is not black and white, and there's freedom to identify in ways that feel right for you. So I find myself wanting to name that inherently, just by laying out definitions, we're missing folks and we're probably saying things that don't resonate with folks. And, we're maybe introducing terms to folks who aren't familiar with a lot of this.

And I find myself wanting to name that because language is a construct, it's limited and also freeing because it means we can construct new terms and new words. And also, then there has to be a coming-to-terms with the way we define some things, the way research defines some things, the way websites and individuals define and explore and identify themselves is inherently going to be unique.

There is no one way to be queer. There's no one way to be, to exist, to show up. I think in just trying to define this all, we're inherently going to kind of miss some folks and hopefully help some folks feel seen.

Steve: I think that's really important. And I think as you discuss, you were talking about how queerness is always emergent and evolving. We are understanding new things about ourselves, and as culture changes and develops more capacity for complexity around identities different folks hold, language is always constantly evolving. And language has the power to hurt. Language has the power to restrict. Language has the power to erase and ignore. And I think that's what's coming to mind as I'm hearing you talk about what we're doing here.

And so, yeah, we are not the experts. We are people who think about and are confused about a lot of this stuff a lot of the time. And I think I want to welcome anybody who's listening to allow yourself to be confused and allow yourself to be curious about this. What comes up for you as new or triggering or frustrating? And seeing where that might be coming from because some of the language that we're going to talk about here is stuff that was formally, really hurtful language to hear at a certain point in my life.

And, there is that aspect of reclaiming language too. Being able to use something that was hurtful to find community and to find some more liberation out of that space of hurt and pain has been a really important part of the language for me.

the history of the word “queer” & other terminology

Courtney: Yeah, I think, I'm just… while you're sharing reflecting on the term "queer" in and of itself and how it was a slur. I know in a lot of my upbringing, it was very much used in that way.

And the reclamation of the word. And there are still some folks who identify and are within LGBTQIA+ communities that really don't like the term. Some of us are like, “Yeah, absolutely. Let's reclaim queer.” And then like the term homosexual - some folks feel really seen by that term. And some folks are like, “Actually, no. That was the DSM diagnosis that literally pathologized our existence. And absolutely, I don't align with that term.”

So I think, even just within the shifts and growth of language, there's room for these words that might feel really icky, and squishy, and new in like a vulnerable “I'm learning things” way. These words might feel really hurtful and harmful and like “absolutely are not okay with me.” And these words might feel more free and flexible and fluid. Even just me categorizing those three things is super limiting, right? Because there's so, so, so much gray area. Like there is nothing black and white about queerness.

Steve: Exactly. And just want to pick up the thread on that word queer because I felt the same way. It was a slur growing up for me in the 90s. I didn't want to even let it come out of my mouth because it felt so ugly to me. As I became more of an adult and I started to be in queer spaces, I realized the power of it to bring everyone together in that gray space. To me, the word queer has been very liberating because it does not focus on these different dimensions, although it provides space for all those dimensions. 

I think it brings together all of us to be able to talk about it and be in that space together, which I think the LGBTQIA and the whole alphabet really focuses on those differences, which are important, but also there's space between all those things.

And when I think of the word queer - I'm going to misquote her - but bell hooks kind of defines the word queer in a way that feels good to me as “that part of me, which feels at odds with the rest of the world.” And for me, it's kind of this political designation of, “here is some kind of solidarity that I can have with other folks who are at odds with the majority culture in the way that it defines what is acceptable or normal.” At the same time, you know, I've gotten to live in other places where I used the word queer, thinking that I am totally this like, liberated, cool person. And that was a really hurtful thing for me to do because I didn't understand the context of where I was. Queer was not appreciated in those communities, but that word, very much in my understanding - queer, queer communities. It's just that this language was not helpful there.

And so, I think there's a lot of tenderness and care that we have to put into how we speak to each other around all this stuff.

communities within the LGBTQIA+ community

Courtney: Absolutely. And even in what you just said, the word communities, like that word alone, is so important because I think what often happens and what I hear a lot is “people in the LGBTQ+ community.” Like, yes, that is a thing. And also, there are communities within it, right? Like queer communities. There are so many facets of the queer alphabet, so to speak, and what exists within that, that it's not just like one overall community. There are so many intricacies and facets and communities within LGBTQIA+ community.

Steve: I think that's really true, and it reminds me of how those communities have not always worked well together. I think it's important that we understand that the history of this, what I'm calling a queer community, was never a monolith. And isn't, is not, a total monolith.

I am a cis male, cis gay white male.That puts me kind of in this place where there is a lot of privilege that I'm holding. And I think that in the history of this whole community, there has been a disproportionate amount of support and attention put on people like me. Even including the history of the LGBT center here in Los Angeles, which was like the Gay…I forget their original title, but they didn't even want to add the word “lesbian” to the title of their organization.

So, there were a bunch of lesbian activists who came in and painted on all their signs because they're like, “Hey, we are here too!” And it's been a lot of that through the history of this whole community. It's making sure that there is enough space for everybody makes me realize that language is important. People get to define themselves, but we also have to allow space for people to define themselves. 

Courtney: Yeah, I think in so many narratives centered around the least marginalized in a marginalized community.

And I think that's where the importance of intersectionality and holding space for facets of marginalization and privilege in all humans is absolutely integral. 

If we look at the history of feminism and white feminism, that completely erased women of color and was just like that least marginalized group within a marginalized group like, “Okay, well, the white women deserve this, but the women of color don't.” Or trans exclusionary feminists right? Like, “Well, cis women deserve this, but trans women don't.” And kind of the history of that, right?

Like, you know, movements for gay rights being centered around cis gay white men and all of the impact of all of that. And the erasure of certain communities within communities and the impact of that because it happened. It happens time and time and time and time again in history.

Steve: It makes me want to dive into some more definitions because it feels like so much of this is really hard to talk about because we can acknowledge how complex it all is. And I know from previous conversations that we’ve had, that you like to deconstruct things. And I want to hear your take on the relationship of gender and sexuality as constructs. 

Courtney: That's a big question. Should we go through the LGBTQIA+ acronym that we've been using really quick?

Steve: Let's do it.

breaking down the acronym “LGBTQIA”

L = Lesbian

Courtney: So just to break down the words in that acronym, the L stands for lesbian, which traditionally is monosexual women who are attracted to women.

G = Gay

Steve: What's monosexual?

Monosexual is attracted to one gender. Like gay men…So, see, like I say “gay,” and now I'm like, “Yes, but gay is also, you know, was originally and has now been reclaimed as a catch-all, kind of similar to queer.” But gay men, right? Like men who are attracted to men.

B = Bisexual

Steve: So that's G. B?

Courtney: So the B is for bisexual, and sometimes you'll see the B with a little plus next to it, to Bi+ identities. They are often misrepresented and misunderstood and frequently lumped into categories with those who hold monosexual identities, despite having vastly different experiences. So bisexuality -  a bisexual identity refers to someone who can be physically, sexually, romantically and or emotionally attracted to individuals of multiple genders. However, the subtraction is not necessarily simultaneous, nor is it necessarily the same type of attraction or to the same degree or at the same time. So effectively, identities that are non-monosexual or are plurasexual fall within the Bi+ umbrella.

Other, you know, terms and identities that folks hold that live within the Bi+ umbrella are also pansexual identity and folks who use queer as their sexual orientation identifier.

Steve: So a lot of these focus on sexual identities, sexual behaviors, sexuality. And through that, there is kind of a through line of gender stuff. So these things can be really closely linked, but they're not the same.

Courtney: Right. And so I think that's the thing that, like early, early on in like 50s, 60s, 70s, even 80s, when some queer research really started. There was this lump together of sexuality and gender. And the more and more research happens, the more we hold that these identities are not necessarily linked. Identity formation, like gender identity formation, and sexuality identity formation, often happen together. But one doesn't necessitate the other. Or one doesn't necessarily predict the other is probably a better way to put that, if that makes sense.

Steve: I think that makes sense. They are closely related. It's almost impossible to talk about them without including some understanding of the other. Like the different dimensions of sexuality, in form, gender, and vice versa. But they are not defining each other.

Courtney: Right.

Steve: But they help us understand things in relationship. It brings us to the next part of the queer alphabet, so to speak. 

T = Trans

Courtney: The T. Trans. And so I think you named earlier, the term cis. Do you want to define cis?

Steve: I define cis as feeling like my gender identity is consistent with the gender that I was assigned at birth and the way that I present in the world. So I am a male. That is how I was raised and socialized, and that feels comfortable for me. I am as society would expect me to be in that way, which feels like a weird way of saying it. I don't know if that's…that doesn't sound like the most academic sort of definition of it, but that's how it feels to me.

Courtney: I don't think we have to be academic. We're supposed to be messy. What did we say at the beginning? [Steve: I'm being messy right now.] A feelings forward  messy podcast, which I acknowledge is hard because you are talking to me, a person who literally researches. Yeah. So, sorry.

Steve: Did I get it right?

Courtney: You're talking about yourself. So like, yes, you got it right for you! Right?But like generally, I guess academically, cisgender is someone whose gender identity is consistent with the sex they were assigned at birth. So, sex being male, female, intersex they were assigned at birth. Then you mentioned like, was raised as and socialized as a boy and man. And so, some folks prefer to separate out the term “male and female and intersex” as a sex identifier. And like “boy, man, woman, girl, non -binary, gender fluid” as the gender identifier.

For some folks, those are separate. For some folks, they aren't. It's really just what feels right for you. Because part of gender is, there is a difference between the sex assigned at birth, gender, gender identity, gender expression. And all of these things are separate from sexual orientation, which defines – one's attraction to other sexual, physical, romantic, and or emotional. Which is again, where we get into this. Like, these things are linked.

Steve: So closely linked. They're also separate.

I think one other thing that you mentioned, which has been key to my understanding and kind of a jumping off point, was the difference between sex and gender. Where sex in my understanding is generally a more biological kind of determination, which I know is also really confusing because there is very little consensus about how you define somebody sexually when actually sex itself is a spectrum.

And gender, which is a socially defined construct about what it means to be a man or be a woman, which we as a culture tend to be very binary about things.

Courtney: Totally. And some folks even like don't use the term gender. They're just like, “My identity is…” Because gender is socially constructed, effectively. Almost everything is socially constructed.

Steve: Right. Language is socially constructed.

Courtney: Right.

Steve: And it's interesting. So, all of this stuff is, feels very shifty. Like we are on not very solid ground. And I think as human beings, we like things to feel very less complex and easier to understand because the world around us is really complicated. And as we delve closer and deeper into this type of subject, we realize gender and sexuality is as complicated as everything else, which makes our human relationships feel really complicated.

Courntey: Yeah. I'm realizing we didn't define the T. 

Steve: Oh, yeah! That’s true.

Courtney: We started to, right? So when someone is cisgender, their gender identity matches the sex they were assigned at birth. So transgender individuals, trans folks, are people whose gender identity does not align with the sex they were assigned at birth. And non-binary is an umbrella term for individuals who experience gender outside of the typical binary categories of man and woman. And there is no, similarly to there's no one way to be queer, there's no one way to be cis or trans or non-binary.

And because we live in a society that like loves binary categorization and categorization in general, that gets messy when people don't fit into, or their gender expression doesn't match what society has like defined as like, “this is what a man looks like” and tries to force cis and trans men to all fit into this presentation.

Steve: I think that's a really important part of it. And I think that that speaks to the very powerful part of the socialization aspect, that there is an expectation of how to be these binary kind of types of people.

And my hope for what might come of some of this exploding of complexity is that there is a lot more capacity for exploration. And freedom. And self -expression. And finding community with people who are totally not like us or who are like us but have something very important to them that is different. And to celebrate that. And to acknowledge all that. Because I think that there is an expectation that we're all going to be the same.

I think that's why I like the word queer, because queer to me means weird and different. And I love that. I want to learn more about queerness and weirdness because I think there is a lot of space there - for creativity and liberation and pleasure and all these things that I think are really important that everyone has a birthright to.

Courtney: Yeah. I had so many different thoughts while you were speaking. I don't know which one to pick. There's just so much here to dig into.

I'm also thinking of the use of trans as a verb that like, I think, and I'm going to kick myself later for not looking this up before we recorded this, [Steve: Be messy!] but I think it's Judith Butler that talked about transing gender and really using trans as a verb, right? That it's not necessarily following society's definition and ideas around gender and sex assigned at birth and socialization and all of these things, which I will also name that some non -binary folks identify as trans and some don't. Some don't feel like the term trans works for them or resonates for their identity.

Steve: I love that.

Courtney: So, we'll stick to the LGBTQIA+  just like in our definitions to start. I'm sure we will get deeper and deeper in this as we go.

I = Intersex 

Courtney: But, I stands for intersex. 

A = Asexual, Aromantic

Courtney: And then that A is asexual aromantic folks.

Q = Queer, Questioning

Courtney: Oh my god, I forgot the Q. 

Steve: We've been talking about queer.

Courtney: Well, there’s Q but also…

Steve: So Q is queer, but there's also questioning.

Courtney: Yeah. So, Q is also one of the letters that different folks sometimes like to use for folks who are questioning their sexual orientation, their gender identity, all of these things - their place in the world and  how they fit into it. And Q is also used as queer. So it depends.

So that's the LGBTQIA+. Like I said, there are many other letters and iterations of the acronym and we'll get hopefully into many of them in our future topics.

Steve: I love that you bring up Judith Butler. It brings to mind where I hope we can go with this conversation. Because I know we just started to unravel this tapestry of queerness, LGBTQ2S+, all of this stuff, and just started to just scratch the surface.

I'm curious - like other topics that I think we should get into are diving more into thinkers like Judith Butler or, there are so many of important…I can't, my mind is blocking me from trying to name them all because they're just too many to name. But important folks that have a lot to say and who have shaped discussions around queerness and all the different iterations of queerness.

I like the idea of talking about media and representation of queerness. What are some deeper topics we should get into in the future?

Courtney: I mean, there are a lot. I think narratives around coming out and the coming out process are really important to talk about. The idea of passing, like the narrative of too queer, not queer enough. Definitely a deep dive into intersectionality, right? We are talking here about even just a definition of terms and haven't even really gotten to delve into other intersecting aspects of identity, race, culture, religion, neurodivergence, whether or not you're able bodied.

I'm thinking of how very many intersecting aspects of identity there are and just how deep we can really go in this and hopefully have some guest stars because we are both white folks.

Steve: I think that's really important to name. We have our own particular experiences in our bodies, how we present to the world. And I think this is too big of a conversation for two people to have. And so I think I'm looking forward to hearing what else comes up, who else can join us, who else can stand in for us at times or take their own space in this space. So thank you for having this very preliminary discussion with me. 

Courtney:  Thank you.

Before we go back into session, we’re bringing you to our community highlight and a social media account to decolonize your feed: 

• The Wall Las Memorias Project is a community health and wellness organization dedicated to serving Latino, LGBTQ, and other underserved populations through advocacy, education, and building the next generation of leadership. Through the creation of an AIDS Memorial in Lincoln Park in Los Angeles as a catalyst for social change, the Wall Las Memorias has worked to eradicate stigma and bigotry and create a safer space in our community for dialogue, community building, and education and prevention services for 28 years.
  The Wall Las Memorial continues to serve low income and hard-to-reach communities throughout Los Angeles - educating community members about HIV and AIDS, substance abuse prevention, mental health stigma reduction for the LGBTQ transitional age youth population, as well as transgender and nonbinary health and wellness, and community building for marginalized communities.

• Follow Alok, @alokvmenon, on Instagram. Alok is a gender non-conforming author, speaker, poet, comedian, and activist who actively challenges stigma, heteronormativity in fashion and culture. [Their Instagram is like an eternal source of just guidance and support for me eternally. Their book reports teach me so much, so definitely check them out. - Courtney]

Courtney Rago is an empath, a critical thinker, a creative, and a questioner. She helps creative individuals to get to know and celebrate all parts of themselves and their talents. She is passionate about supporting families and partners to build healthy relationships and feel more nourished by their intimate connections. She firmly believes that we have the power to rewrite who society tells us we “should” be, challenging the status quo, and radically celebrating ourselves as an act of resistance. At heart, Courtney is a Jersey girl who talks fast, walks fast, drinks too much coffee, and reallyyyy misses Yankee games and NY bagels.

Steve Wilson is an Associate Marriage and Family Therapist, a queer man, and a feminist. He loves working with young adults navigating adulthood, folks healing from racial trauma and minority stress, and couples/partners. He is especially drawn to working with adolescents and young adults embracing queerness. He deeply and personally understand the complexities of queer experience and want to help other queer individuals and partners, parents of queer and trans youth, and those practicing consensual non-monogamy (CNM) to build thriving, connected, & healing relationships.

Fun facts are that Steve has been a teacher, tutor, publicist, recruiter, bookseller, cabinetmaker, and a zip-line tour guide!

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