Below is an interview with both of our male-identified therapists (and some of our favorite sensitive and tender men,) Paul Kindman & Steve Wilson, who discuss together the concept of toxic masculinity, how it shows up in our lives and how it can be harmful for humans of all genders. Paul and Steve help to model how to talk about emotionally provoking concepts and sharing vulnerable stories that have shaped their own relationship to masculinity. Read on to learn more about toxic masculinity and how masculinity isn’t inherently toxic when instead, vulnerability and emotions are encouraged.

Paul: This week on the blog, we thought we’d do something a little different. We’re going to talk about the concept of toxic masculinity: what it is, some common misconceptions, some examples from lived experience, and ways that psychotherapy can be a support. But I’m not going to go it alone in discussing this topic. Instead, this will be a conversation between myself (Paul Kindman, LMFT) and my lovely colleague, Steve Wilson, AMFT. Together, we will attempt to shed some light on this important topic and talk about some of the ways that it has had an impact on our lives.

defining toxic masculinity

I find that it’s often helpful to start with some definitions. What is toxic masculinity? Well, according to Oxford, it is “a set of attitudes and ways of behaving stereotypically associated with or expected of men, regarded as having a negative impact on men and on society as a whole.”  Cambridge defines it as “ideas about the way that men should behave that are seen as harmful, for example the idea that men should not cry or admit weakness.” A piece in the New York Times about toxic masculinity states “Toxic masculinity is what can come of teaching boys that they can’t express emotion openly; that they have to be “tough all the time”; that anything other than that makes them “feminine” or “weak.”

Steve, what do you make of these definitions? Is there a way that you like to define toxic masculinity in your work?

Steve: I think that "toxic masculinity" is such a loaded term, out there provoking big conversations alongside terms like "gaslighting" and "narcissism." I want to add another definition by author and social critic bell hooks who instead uses the term "Patriarchal Masculinity": "Learning to wear a mask (that word already embedded in the term “masculinity”) is the first lesson in patriarchal masculinity that a boy learns. He learns that his core feelings cannot be expressed if they do not conform to the acceptable behaviors sexism defines as male. Asked to give up the true self in order to realize the patriarchal ideal, boys learn self-betrayal early...."

What I like about hooks' and the New York Times quote is that they point out how this is a learned behavior that has a lot to do with the emotional lives of boys and men. These lessons start early and are reinforced every day. They are very hard to confront. But like looking beneath a mask to find the expressive face behind it, we can look underneath layers of socialization and teaching to find an emotionally complex human was there all along.

In the therapy room, I notice that masculine socialization can lead to difficulty accessing and experiencing emotion of all sorts. That mask usually shows up as anger and irritation in place of uncomfortable emotions and discomfort forming deeper connections with friends and partners, even with me, the therapist.

What do you make of the effects of toxic masculinity? How do you see it showing up in the therapy room or even in life outside of therapy?

the harmful impact of toxic masculinity & resulting shame

Paul: Thank you, Steve! I love that bell hooks quote - it highlights some of the most important elements of toxic masculinity: that sexism harms boys and men, too, and that toxic masculinity impacts everyone.

To answer your question, the effects of toxic masculinity are wide ranging. Because I primarily work with men and couples, I see these effects show up in the therapy room nearly every day. With my individual male clients, from the outside it can sometimes look like stoicism: enduring pain and hardship without displaying any feelings. This can be a point of pride for some of my male clients, but it leads to larger and more lasting consequences such as depression, anxiety and physical illness. These are often self medicated with substances such as alcohol or other drugs. It can also look like an inability to connect with partners and loved ones, and a lack of tolerance for the emotions of others. This is especially harmful in intimate relationships, where men's learned lack of acceptance of their own feelings and vulnerability creates distance and pain in their relationships with their partners.

Growing up being socialized as a boy, toxic masculinity had an impact on me long before I knew the term. I was a sensitive kid from the start, and experienced quite a bit of hardship growing up without a father in Soviet Ukraine and eventually immigrating to the United States. I noticed early on that my eyes would become tearful during both positive and negative experiences with other people—whether it was a moment of hurt or connection. I hated the fact that my eyes would tear up—this was not a behavior that was OK for a man, and I felt ashamed and tried to stifle my tears as often as I could. It wasn't until I was much older, with a lot of support and guidance that I came to understand my sensitivity as a wholly acceptable—and wonderful—part of my experience. In fact, when I understood it as one of my greatest strengths, I was able to experience so much more joyful connection in my life, and found my path as a therapist.

If you're open to sharing, how has toxic masculinity impacted you personally, Steve? Is there anything else you'd like folks to know about this topic before we end our conversation for now?

Steve: I love your examples of how toxic masculinity can show up in relationships, especially that struggle to tolerate the emotions of others. I think that speaks to one of the sources of loneliness and isolation that many masculine folks feel. So much is gained when we can share vulnerably. On that note, your story is really touching, and shows the redemptive possibilities of embracing the sensitive side of your humanity.

I think that the pathway to creating loving men is through showing men the love, care, and open embrace of all parts of their humanity. It’s important to remember that nothing about masculinity is inherently toxic. Masculinity can be beautiful, generative, and nurturing when it isn’t strangled by sexist ideals.

One thing that stands out for me when considering my own story is how the lessons of toxic masculinity weren’t necessarily delivered at home but out in the world, on the playground, and on TV. As a kid I took an interest in dance from an early age. I loved the music and movement, the costumes, and the performance of it all, but I learned that for many of my 7-year-old peers these things were unacceptably un-masculine. I struggled to see examples of other boys like me and both boys and girls were often quick to remind me that dance was for girls, and performing in costume was gay—that catch-all 90’s insult. It taught me early that it was important to hide parts of myself in order to avoid homophobic insults. As I grew into my identity as a gay man, it was a struggle to embrace the things I enjoyed without feeling shame or being overwhelmed with vulnerability. An important part of the healing process for me has been in seeking examples of men who embraced their full humanity and finding community with those who celebrated and validated the parts of me I used to hide.

the healing impact of embracing modern masculinity & vulnerability

I think that the pathway to creating loving men is through showing men the love, care, and open embrace of all parts of their humanity. It’s important to remember that nothing about masculinity is inherently toxic. Masculinity can be beautiful, generative, and nurturing when it isn’t strangled by sexist ideals. Thanks for having this conversation with me, Paul, it reminds me that these conversations are a great way to combat years of harmful messaging. Any last thoughts?

Paul: Thank you for sharing your story with me... Through vulnerable conversations like these, and in my work as a therapist I have sadly heard about countless men and boys learning to be ashamed of parts of themselves on the playground and through TV/media. I found myself really feeling for 7 year-old Steve as I read your words!

To wrap up, I honestly just want to underscore your last point: Masculinity is not inherently toxic!! So many men hear the term "toxic masculinity" and retort with some sort of defense, as if the concept of the masculine is under attack. If folks can take anything away from this article it is this: when we talk about toxic masculinity, we are not trying to drag all men; instead, we are describing an oppressive system that forces men into a box—one that is very limiting, and in the end, harmful. I stand with you, Steve, in setting out to help men embrace all parts of their humanity. I sincerely appreciate getting to have this conversation and engaging in this meaningful work with you.

Steve Wilson is an Associate Marriage and Family Therapist, a queer man, and a feminist. He loves working with young adults navigating adulthood, folks healing from racial trauma and minority stress, and couples/partners. He is especially drawn to working with adolescents and young adults embracing queerness. He deeply and personally understand the complexities of queer experience and want to help other queer individuals and partners, parents of queer and trans youth, and those practicing consensual non-monogamy (CNM) to build thriving, connected, & healing relationships.

Paul Kindman, LMFT is an immigrant, refugee and acculturated American. He loves working with couples, partners and multicultural relationships who are navigating unique challenges of honoring many belief systems and traditions within relationships and families.

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