Jesse (Intro) (00:00):

(Jazz Hip Hop Musical Intro plays...) My name is Jesse, and this is Out of Session with Kindman & Co., a feelings forward podcast where we leave our therapist selves at the door and have messy, real conversations about being human. In today's episode, I have a conversation with a longtime friend, Anthony Bishop, who is also a therapist and a person in recovery. We explore various ways of understanding addiction and recovery, thinking especially about the social context of recovery, as well as ideas of connection and community. Without further ado, here's our conversation.

Jesse (00:54):
Here we are, dude.

Anthony (00:55):
Yeah, here we are. Thanks for having me, Jesse.

Jesse (00:57):
Yeah, I'm really glad to be here with you and to talk about recovery. We've had many conversations about recovery and spirituality. I'm interested to hear how your views have changed over the years, and especially in the recent years, becoming a therapist. You've been a therapist for a while now, but just how that's affected your views on recovery.

Anthony (01:24):
Yeah. Yeah. I'm happy to share.

Jesse (01:27):
Cool. I have some questions. I think maybe somewhere that we could start is looking at: what was your journey in recovery like? And how did therapy and mental health fit into that?

Anthony (01:44):
Journey in recovery was definitely lots of ups and downs, lots of challenges, moments of peace and ease, the whole gamut. I know that I could say I couldn't have done it without the help of other people. The community factor was huge. And I found that to be the case too even with mental health, having peers and people close that you can be transparent with and open with. And going to where I need to best get the help that I need, even if that's not through, say, one particular program or meeting or something like that. So whether that means going to an individual therapist, group therapy, an intensive outpatient program, coming at it from as many angles as necessary.

Jesse (02:46):
Yeah, totally. And tapping into a variety of resources and communities too.

Anthony (02:52):
Yeah, absolutely.

Jesse (02:55):
Was that something that you discovered early on in recovery, or was that something that over time... how has that sense of community grown or expanded for you in where you seek, where you have sought connection and support in being a sober person?

Anthony (03:13):
It was definitely lacking before recovery and before sobriety. I forgot who said it. You might know. Yuval Hari? Or no, that might not be him. But anyways, he was basically saying that the opposite of addiction is not sobriety, that it's connection or community. Yeah, I can't remember who said that.

Jesse (03:41):
Yeah, Johann Hari.

Anthony (03:42):
Yeah, Johann Hari. There we go. There we go. And Rat Park, that study and everything, which was pretty interesting...

Jesse (03:53):
Which, just for people who don't know about Rat Park, we could maybe explain what that is for them and what they studied and what they found.

Anthony (04:01):
Sure. Yeah.

Jesse (04:03):
Do you want to explain it or should I go off of my memory? My memory is... (laughter).

Anthony (04:07):
Yeah, mine's probably similar to yours...

Jesse (04:09):
But Rat Park was a study where they looked at different... kind of how the environment affected... They had these rats in controlled environments, and in one environment, they were isolated, they didn't have communal spaces...

Anthony (04:27):
And nothing to play with...

Jesse (04:29):
Yeah, no play. No connection in the "rat sense." And then they gave them through their water two options to either drink normal water or opiate-infused, some kind of drug-infused water...

Anthony (04:45):
Yeah, I think it might've been cocaine. I could be mistaken, but yeah, I believe it was...

Jesse (04:53):
Yeah, and when they were living isolated, they didn't have community, connection, those kind of bigger resources beyond just basic survival... the cocaine was very appealing, and these rats were cracked out of their minds...

Anthony (05:08):
Yeah, that's what they chose, that's what they went for...

Jesse (05:11):
And then in the Rat Park scenario, it was a rat paradise. And, from what I remember, they would still drink the cocaine water sporadically, but very rarely, if at all. And it didn't kind of develop into that same addictive process. Whereas when they're alone, that's all they do. And eventually that supersedes survival. And many of them died just because they would only drink cocaine water.

Anthony (05:45):
Yeah. It gets me thinking, too, a lot about... so much of it is this sort of social signaling component. And I think of social anxiety and so many other fears in life and how much stuff can really come back down to deep seated fears of being outcasted from a group or not being accepted into the group, and... back in the days that meant death. And it's like how we survive or how we've come to survive as a species... is being able to come together in groups. We don't have the crazy claws and fangs and all of that stuff. Or even bodies to survive the elements...

Jesse (06:35):
Yeah, and the idea of attachment too, and why attachment's so important to us as humans, and that sense of security in our relationships... because it's a biological need. Without that secure base, or safe haven, and people to take care of us, we would die. And even as we grow older, we need communities to survive. I would even think that we haven't necessarily fully outgrown that. The extreme of isolation in today's society, you still end up in a situation where that can result in death and often does.

Anthony (07:12):
Yeah. Well, in the prison systems, with solitary confinement and the controversy over that and cruelty of that, for that reason... and using, addiction... those kinds of things are often pretty isolating.

Jesse (07:38):
Yeah, and on a personal level too, I think that's something we both know from our lived experience. Sometimes it's easy to forget how it felt before I got sober, but I think such a big part of it that, I didn't think of it in this way at the time, was that I was really cut off from other people. I mean, I had people in my life. I did have some support networks, but I think there were a lot of barriers that I had built up that made it difficult to connect with people. And even being in the recovery community or in different recovery communities, you hear a lot of people say, kind of just feeling like they were different or they never fit in, or you hear all these different ways of describing not feeling connected, not feeling a part of something bigger. And I think even just kind of looking back, as my difficulties with drugs and alcohol progressed, it became increasingly... the world got smaller and smaller. I cut off and hurt more people. And that's kind of like the tragic sense of addiction, which we were talking about Johann Hari, and he talks about that, how it's kind of this tragic sense where you desperately need connection, but because of stigma, because of your own behaviors and actions while you're using drugs and alcohol, you tend to cut off people and also people cut you off... and that leads to that addictive tendency being even stronger, that hunger being insatiable.

Anthony (09:25):
Yeah, and this is kind of fast forwarding maybe into social justice components and the cultural disparities or unbalancing there.

Jesse (09:41):
Yeah, totally. When we think about community and connection and that being a strong component, I mean, something I know from going to treatment centers, being in different recovery programs is that there's this idea that you run into that we're all the same, which... I think from one perspective, that can be helpful to build a sense of unity. But then it also kind of... I'm curious to hear your thoughts on this, but I had this feeling like, yes, we are, we all share this experience of addiction in some way, but it almost felt like an erasure of our differences, which are still important. Is it the same for a person going into a treatment center where 80% of the people there are white and you're the only person there that's a queer person of color or trans person of color? How is that going to affect your ability to be accepted by community, to feel safe in community? And then even outside of the treatment center and recovery communities, what kind of resources do you have in your life that either support or make recovery more difficult? And yeah, I am curious, what are your thoughts on this idea of we have this shared experience of addiction, and on the one hand, that can help people connect who have drastically different life experiences around this common cause. But then on the other hand, could it also be an erasure of our differences, which I would argue are also important?

Anthony (11:15):
For sure. Yeah. I feel like maybe just talking a little bit about addiction and recovery and what that actually is, and is it a disease? What actually is it, because there's a lot that the field of psychology is really starting to uncover in terms of... a lot of flaws with how the world, or at least the US has been going about mental health for decades now, missing the individual. I don't know, what do you think? Do you think... or what is addiction, and is it a disease?

Jesse (12:04):
We're both smiling. That's a big question. (Laughter).

Anthony (12:06):
(Laughter). Yeah, right? Huge.

Jesse (12:07):
Yeah. What is addiction? Yeah, I do think it's important to kind of get into that question. And really something that's changed for me is kind of looking more into how the opposite of addiction isn't sobriety, it's connection. And I mean, it's a nice catchphrase. There's more to that, but that's been a much bigger part of how I think about why we become addicted and when addictive patterns are hard to get out of, when they're reinforced... A lot of that is from the feedback loop or just getting stuck into this cycle of isolating ourselves more and more and more. Or being isolated by others too. It's not like we intentionally bring it upon ourselves. But yeah, I mean, that's a whole can of worms about what is addiction. I think when you go to... when I've been to treatment programs when I was younger, you hear the disease concept, like the model of addiction as a disease. And on the one hand, that's maybe helpful in... when you're first trying to get sober, it can take some relief off of your shoulders, where... if you haven't thought of addiction in that way, as a sickness, it feels like personal failing. It feels like weakness or moral failing in some way, that you can't control it. And I know that's something I struggled with in thinking that... me ending up in rehab was a sign that I couldn't handle my shit. Or my stuff, pardon my language. And then I think that idea of having a disease helps take off some of that shame that's associated with it. It opens up self-compassion, but then it also becomes... and this is maybe a bigger question too, of how we're approaching addiction collectively, where it's kind of medicalized? Or it's... the medical model is by far at the forefront. Brain chemistry, genetics, the biochemical interaction of a substance and a person. And when we're looking at that, how much are we leaving out things like connection, community... that kind of support in somebody's life. Identity and differences in identity, and how intersectionality shows up when we're trying to get sober. Yeah, that's a big question though. What is addiction? There's part of me that also wants to think about coming from different recovery models, this spiritual component or just the idea that it's more than just an interaction of a drug in your body. It's... what is driving that initial hunger that you had anyway? Why were you so hungry for something greater? And I think that's still a big part of how I think about it, but...

Anthony (15:19):
Or food, sex, video games... these kinds of things too.

Jesse (15:24):
Yeah. And where do we draw the line of, is there a line between... I'm curious, what do you think? Is there a line between a heroin addict and a sex addict? I mean, obviously it's not the same, but in another sense, isn't it addiction?

Anthony (15:42):
Yeah. Yeah. I wish I knew, and I'm kind of glad I don't also... Yeah, it's interesting, this kind of natural drive for sex kind of biologically, and is there that for opiates? I mean, we're born with opioid receptors and endogenous opioids and that kind of thing, and yeah, what is all that about though? What is this sort of, "I need," or "I feel I need something more, something greater." And I feel like... the way I see addiction now, it's like... I can't not see it. It's everywhere. I see it... sometimes it almost kind of feels like we're all just... I'm a little self-conscious about this opinion, but sometimes I feel like we're kind of all robots or zombies to a certain extent. We're looking at our phones all the time, and are we really even free to choose not to? And we're being hit with so many different forms of stimulation left and right, and that's all... That was never a thing way back. And so we're just kind of like... it's more and more and more. Everything's more and more and more.

Jesse (17:13):
Yeah, that's so true. And you hear that from... when people get sober from whatever our drug of choice or drugs of choice were, it's so common that you'll see someone, or even myself, you start to develop patterns with something else. You lean into something else or other things... food, cigarettes, coffee, sex, and that...

Anthony (17:38):
Thinking.

Jesse (17:39):
Yes. (Laughter). Yeah, even thinking. Yeah. And kind of just... that tendency to get sucked in. I'm thinking of the pleasure center in the brain or whatever, the part of the brain that's like... I should know this (laughter)... but, yeah, just how it's automatic, it's robotic, like you were saying. Where, if you think of addiction in that way, or if you see that aspect, it's everywhere. It's everywhere. But then I wonder too, taking a step back and thinking about, I think our conversation is moving into this idea of different models of recovery. And many of them are touching on, I think, important parts of understanding what addiction is and then how we think of, what does it mean to be "sober." But many of them have all these blind spots. So then when we're showing up and trying to support... whether it's just a friend, maybe... if you're listening to this podcast, maybe you're not sober, maybe you're not in the recovery community, maybe you're not a therapist, maybe this isn't your work, but you love somebody who's struggling with something. And how do we show up in light of all these different ways of thinking about what addiction is, and it can get so confusing and so messy. But I'm curious, what are some of your ideas about how we show up?

Anthony (19:11):
It seems to be... showing up for someone... I can't really totally put language in that, you know what I mean? To be there for someone, trying to live in harmony or be supportive and be useful and helpful, even by being silent. That's huge. And that's one thing that I think a lot of recovery programs are on board with. And I find it just a great way to live life, period. Coming back to the connection and the community... can I try to just be part of the harmony of it and not the discord, or causing a bunch of chaos or distress... I think of animals and how they seem to do it. I'm sure there's some zoologists or biologists that will say otherwise that there's some animals that probably do some extremely horrific things to one another (laughter)... but the way that they care for their young, they're not hoarding a bunch of possessions over the top like humans seem to be doing. And they seem to go with the flow and go with harmony. And to be able to try to do that with life and everyone else in it is priceless.

Jesse (20:49):
Yeah. I think you bring up a really good point that... when I think of the term, "spirituality," or to me that can be interchangeable with connection and feeling belonging... how it's hard to put words to that, the actual embodied experience of feeling seen, feeling truly supported and cared for. And it's, I think unfortunately hard to come by that. But thinking of... capitalism, dude, and just how inhumanely we have come to adopt this way of life, and...

Anthony (21:27):
Even the recovery communities in terms of the services that they provide and things like that... Sorry, I cut you off.

Jesse (21:36):
No, yeah, it's everywhere. And just... I hear what you're saying and I know that embodied feeling, and I think that's so crucial to... there's this term that I've come across recently called, "recovery capital," and it's this idea that everybody has a different set of resources that we bring to the table when we've struggled with addiction... thinking specifically, too, of drug and alcohol addiction. And these are things like, do you have family that still supports you? Do you have other social supports? Do you have community that supports you? Do you have resources at your disposal? Do you have health insurance? Do you have cashflow where you can afford to pay for services in this capitalist recovery system? And a person's ability to stay sober is often not just curing a disease, but it's building on and maximizing these supports that people have... and giving people recovery capital. Because we think of, "what is sobriety?" I don't think it's just not using drugs. And you'll hear that anywhere you go, almost anywhere you go. Many people will tell you, being sober isn't just about stopping using. That's just the first part. But then thinking of sobriety, not just as, can we create abstinence in someone, but can we put the resources and connections and capital in somebody's life where sobriety will follow? And I don't know, it seems like that's often missing in... at least, especially the clinical setting and how the treatment centers are working and how we're approaching addiction medically. It's not always addressing all of that. It's like... creating abstinence and then sending people on their way. "Alright, back out there you go." But if you still don't have a place to stay, if you still don't have community, if you're still struggling to hold a job or even get a job, how can you stay sober?

Anthony (23:50):
And this is all stuff that, I mean in a way can be sort of... I mean probably not predicted, but somewhat of screened for or strengthened from a very young age. Like in schools and stuff, how much focus is on that? On connection and community? I know with the charter schools and stuff getting more popular and those more specific programs, I'm sure that there's a lot valuable there... The adverse childhood experiences and stuff like... no one's ever had say over, hey, am I going to have these or not? And I think those are actually pretty good predictors of what can happen in your life later on, all of which we never had say over. And if there's things that are protective, where it's like... and they could be done at a young age, maybe we should consider putting some more attention on that. But like you're saying, coming back to present day and someone's wanting to get sober or trying to get sober or something like that. Yeah, there's lots of other factors that are going to influence the doability of that.

Jesse (25:27):
Yeah. Yeah, and something that's coming to mind for me right now is like that, why are we not doing that? Why are we not being more preventive? Why are we not strengthening communities? And then I think of... it's not profitable.

Anthony (25:46):
Yeah, that's what I thought too. That was what came to my mind also. Yeah...

Jesse (25:50):
It's a whole industry right now, treatment centers...

Anthony (25:52):
Thriving off people's sickness...

Jesse (25:56):
Yeah, which can be a little disheartening as a therapist, but... I know that we've had some conversations along these lines and... we gotta try and find ways that we can with what power we have in society to work against that, and engage in some kind of activism or community engagement and not just be... I don't know. It's hard. It's hard not to be fatalistic about it, but we do have to find ways to work against that and to make small differences. And I think of even anybody who's listening to this, whether you're a therapist or you're in recovery or you love somebody that's struggling or has struggled with addiction... What are the ways... we already talked about what are the ways that we show up, but even in a broader sense, what are the ways... Because this has kind of evolved from a conversation about addiction to a conversation about the inhospitality or... is that a word? The harmfulness of society and how that creates a lot of the conditions for people to become addicted. And in that sense like, holy shit, there's, pardon my language, I might have to edit that out... There's an overlap. In that sense, there's an overlap of thinking about addiction recovery and also just generally social justice, equity... These are not separate things, at least in kind of how I'm thinking of it right now. You really can't think about meaningful recovery, I think, without bringing that into the conversation...

Jesse (Outro) (27:55):
Thanks for listening to the episode. We covered a lot of ideas around addiction, recovery, connection, and community, and we'll cover a lot more in part two. I'd love to hear your thoughts. Please share what you think on social media or by commenting. If you're feeling inspired and wondering how you might get involved or take action, here are a couple of places that you could start.

(28:19)
Faces and Voices of Recovery is a leading nonprofit recovery advocacy organization. They work with recovery community organizations and communities throughout the US to advocate for normalizing recovery and de-stigmatizing addiction. Notably, in the last few years, they've taken a strong stance in support of social justice and equity and have become one of the stronger advocates for making recovery more socially just. They organize events, groups, and recovery resources, you can get involved by attending one of their events or donating to the organization.

(28:52)
Another organization you can check out is the SAFE Project, S-A-F-E. They're also working to support increased equity in addiction recovery. Their website states: "Equitable access to prevention, intervention, treatment and recovery resources must start with the acknowledgment of the historical context of systemic inequity and the addiction epidemic. By understanding the epidemic, we can focus on eliminating health disparities and achieving optimal health for all Americans. We support all people who are impacted by substance use and mental health challenges, including those who work to make programs and resources more readily available and easily accessible. We also understand that the disease of addiction may not discriminate, but the root causes related to it do, including but not limited to inequities of health and wellbeing, education, poverty, and social and economic mobility. We are committed to acknowledging and generating action oriented approaches that are inclusive to all Americans impacted by addiction, as well as the root causes of the disease. I'll link both orgs websites and social media in the description. Again, many ways to get involved. One of the easiest ways is to donate or simply follow them on social media and decolonize your feed. Finally, another way that we can help is on a more personal note, bringing some of this dialogue and action to our own communities, families, and loved ones. Most of us are affected by addiction in some way. Many of us love somebody who's still out there struggling. It is important that we set boundaries and learn to detach with love, but we can't put the still suffering addict out of our heart. If you can, reach out to that person that you know. Tell them you love them and that you want them to be well. Send them these resources. Let them know that they're not alone. Thanks again for listening. Stay tuned and I'll catch you next time.

Jesse Romo, AMFT, is a multi-racial associate marriage and family therapist who aims to break intergenerational cycles of addictions, abuse, and trauma while also revising narratives of distress and well-being. Creating music, taking rides on his motorcycle, and spending time with his partner and their trio of cats (Sakura, Amma-chi, and Simba) is how Jesse likes to connect with life.

GET HELP NOW

If you are interested in therapy with Kindman & Co. and would like to learn more about the services we have to help you, follow these quick & easy steps:

1. Schedule a free 20-minute phone consultation with our Care Coordinator.

2. Get matched with the therapist who’s right for you.

Start feeling more supported and fulfilled in your life and relationships!

THERAPY SERVICES AT KINDMAN & CO.

We are here for your diverse counseling needs. Our team of therapists provides lgbtqia+ affirmative therapy, couples therapy & premarital counseling, grief & loss counseling, group therapy, and more. We have specialists in trauma, women's issues, depression & anxiety, substance use, mindfulness & embodiment, and support for creatives. For therapists and practice owners, we also provide consultation and supervision services! We look forward to welcoming you for therapy in Highland Park and online.